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	<title>Comments on: The End</title>
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		<title>By: green_knight</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-end/comment-page-1/#comment-1799</link>
		<dc:creator>green_knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=440#comment-1799</guid>
		<description>Chicoy,
I have Mary Gentle to thank for that, and if anyone is an expert in Very Long Books, it&#039;s her ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chicoy,<br />
I have Mary Gentle to thank for that, and if anyone is an expert in Very Long Books, it&#8217;s her <img src='http://pcwrede.com/blog/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: pcwrede</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-end/comment-page-1/#comment-1793</link>
		<dc:creator>pcwrede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=440#comment-1793</guid>
		<description>acco_aqualung - You actually have two problems: 1) writing from the POV of someone very different from yourself, and 2) exactly what story you&#039;re going to tell and how you&#039;re going to tell it.

If you&#039;ve already written the first half, good...but I get the impression that you haven&#039;t and at the moment you aren&#039;t interested in it. If that&#039;s the case, don&#039;t write it. Do the king-coming-back-after 16 years story. And if the backstory isn&#039;t relevant LEAVE IT OUT. Yes, it&#039;s interesting (enough that you originally thought you&#039;d make a book of it), but that doesn&#039;t mean it belongs in the story. Put in as little as you can get away with and still have the reader understand the current action. You can always write a prequel later, if you get interested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>acco_aqualung &#8211; You actually have two problems: 1) writing from the POV of someone very different from yourself, and 2) exactly what story you&#8217;re going to tell and how you&#8217;re going to tell it.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;ve already written the first half, good&#8230;but I get the impression that you haven&#8217;t and at the moment you aren&#8217;t interested in it. If that&#8217;s the case, don&#8217;t write it. Do the king-coming-back-after 16 years story. And if the backstory isn&#8217;t relevant LEAVE IT OUT. Yes, it&#8217;s interesting (enough that you originally thought you&#8217;d make a book of it), but that doesn&#8217;t mean it belongs in the story. Put in as little as you can get away with and still have the reader understand the current action. You can always write a prequel later, if you get interested.</p>
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		<title>By: accio_aqualung</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-end/comment-page-1/#comment-1785</link>
		<dc:creator>accio_aqualung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=440#comment-1785</guid>
		<description>I second green-knight&#039;s suggestion for plotting out a multi-volume work.  The monster-behemoth-thing I&#039;ve been working on for years had turned into a trilogy but material for the middle volume was scant, so that all got shoved into an epilogue where the rightful king has been crowned and everyone was set up to live happily ever after. But then I still am not sure how to segue from there to the last volume, where the king has somehow been stranded on an island for the past 16 years, is rediscovered, and reclaims his throne (again). And at this point, I&#039;m much more interested in the 2nd half (where the king reclaims his throne after a 16 yr absence) than the first half, but the 2nd half can&#039;t stand by itself because that would be just wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much backstory to shove into one volume. The backstory wouldn&#039;t necessarily be relevant to the current plot, but it does explain how all the characters got together in the first place. 

My other problem is that the 2nd half is told in first person by the king&#039;s 16 year old son, and I am neither 16 nor a male, this poses problems, but has nothing to do with endings. So I shall end this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second green-knight&#8217;s suggestion for plotting out a multi-volume work.  The monster-behemoth-thing I&#8217;ve been working on for years had turned into a trilogy but material for the middle volume was scant, so that all got shoved into an epilogue where the rightful king has been crowned and everyone was set up to live happily ever after. But then I still am not sure how to segue from there to the last volume, where the king has somehow been stranded on an island for the past 16 years, is rediscovered, and reclaims his throne (again). And at this point, I&#8217;m much more interested in the 2nd half (where the king reclaims his throne after a 16 yr absence) than the first half, but the 2nd half can&#8217;t stand by itself because that would be just wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much backstory to shove into one volume. The backstory wouldn&#8217;t necessarily be relevant to the current plot, but it does explain how all the characters got together in the first place. </p>
<p>My other problem is that the 2nd half is told in first person by the king&#8217;s 16 year old son, and I am neither 16 nor a male, this poses problems, but has nothing to do with endings. So I shall end this.</p>
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		<title>By: pcwrede</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-end/comment-page-1/#comment-1784</link>
		<dc:creator>pcwrede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=440#comment-1784</guid>
		<description>green_knight - You&#039;re right about where the story question/problem usually is, but I was thinking of some of the &quot;short stories&quot; I&#039;ve seen that are, well, incidents. They have NO central question or problem, not even &quot;Will the protagonist have maple syrup or strawberries on his waffle?&quot; 

I should also point out that some writers never consciously identify their central problem or story question, and this works just fine for them. I rarely, if ever, actually lay it out in those terms. But if something&#039;s wrong with the ending, and I can&#039;t figure out what, then going all analytical and figuring out whether I&#039;ve solved my central problem is often very useful.

And what sort of problem are you having with your multi-strand epic?

Chris - Thank you! It was both fun and tearing-your-hair-out work.

Tess - What you&#039;re describing is what I call &quot;validation&quot; - the fact that you see the characters at peace at last &quot;proves&quot; to the reader that it&#039;s really over. It&#039;s usually a change of pace in an action-oriented novel, but it doesn&#039;t have to be if it&#039;s a comedy-of-manners or an introspective, character-oriented piece.

Chicoy - Oh, good point! I forgot that one - the folks whose endings don&#039;t work because they provide closure for the wrong thing! This gets exceptionally tricky when the writer thinks the main problem is one thing, but the reader thinks it&#039;s something else.

Michelle - Yes; getting the minor plot threads tied off in advance of the climax, in such a way as to make the climax worse, works brilliantly sometimes. I tend to think of it as kind of an advanced technique, though, because if the writer isn&#039;t careful the subplots can feel as if they&#039;re still unfinished, or even end up detracting from the big climax instead of building it up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>green_knight &#8211; You&#8217;re right about where the story question/problem usually is, but I was thinking of some of the &#8220;short stories&#8221; I&#8217;ve seen that are, well, incidents. They have NO central question or problem, not even &#8220;Will the protagonist have maple syrup or strawberries on his waffle?&#8221; </p>
<p>I should also point out that some writers never consciously identify their central problem or story question, and this works just fine for them. I rarely, if ever, actually lay it out in those terms. But if something&#8217;s wrong with the ending, and I can&#8217;t figure out what, then going all analytical and figuring out whether I&#8217;ve solved my central problem is often very useful.</p>
<p>And what sort of problem are you having with your multi-strand epic?</p>
<p>Chris &#8211; Thank you! It was both fun and tearing-your-hair-out work.</p>
<p>Tess &#8211; What you&#8217;re describing is what I call &#8220;validation&#8221; &#8211; the fact that you see the characters at peace at last &#8220;proves&#8221; to the reader that it&#8217;s really over. It&#8217;s usually a change of pace in an action-oriented novel, but it doesn&#8217;t have to be if it&#8217;s a comedy-of-manners or an introspective, character-oriented piece.</p>
<p>Chicoy &#8211; Oh, good point! I forgot that one &#8211; the folks whose endings don&#8217;t work because they provide closure for the wrong thing! This gets exceptionally tricky when the writer thinks the main problem is one thing, but the reader thinks it&#8217;s something else.</p>
<p>Michelle &#8211; Yes; getting the minor plot threads tied off in advance of the climax, in such a way as to make the climax worse, works brilliantly sometimes. I tend to think of it as kind of an advanced technique, though, because if the writer isn&#8217;t careful the subplots can feel as if they&#8217;re still unfinished, or even end up detracting from the big climax instead of building it up.</p>
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		<title>By: Michelle Bottorff</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-end/comment-page-1/#comment-1783</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle Bottorff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=440#comment-1783</guid>
		<description>Trying plot threads off separately can work just as well if you do it in such a way that each minor thread tied off makes the main event even more fraught.  If the grand-vizier runs off with the kitchen maid BEFORE the dragon is slain, and does so on the magic carpet that the other characters had planned to use to get close enough to the dragon&#039;s head to whack him somewhere he could actually get hurt, for example.  That way instead of detracting from the impact of the climax, you enhance it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trying plot threads off separately can work just as well if you do it in such a way that each minor thread tied off makes the main event even more fraught.  If the grand-vizier runs off with the kitchen maid BEFORE the dragon is slain, and does so on the magic carpet that the other characters had planned to use to get close enough to the dragon&#8217;s head to whack him somewhere he could actually get hurt, for example.  That way instead of detracting from the impact of the climax, you enhance it.</p>
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		<title>By: Chicoy</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-end/comment-page-1/#comment-1782</link>
		<dc:creator>Chicoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:25:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=440#comment-1782</guid>
		<description>I think green-knight right about identifying the story question, which is not always the same as the plot.  Like in `Magician&#039;s Ward&#039; where the question at the beginning is whether Kim can settle in to her new high society life, and the story ends with the engagement and job offer.  If the bad guy had just been defeated without the wrap-up, the story would&#039;ve felt really unfinished because the core question wouldn&#039;t have been addressed at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think green-knight right about identifying the story question, which is not always the same as the plot.  Like in `Magician&#8217;s Ward&#8217; where the question at the beginning is whether Kim can settle in to her new high society life, and the story ends with the engagement and job offer.  If the bad guy had just been defeated without the wrap-up, the story would&#8217;ve felt really unfinished because the core question wouldn&#8217;t have been addressed at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Tess</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-end/comment-page-1/#comment-1781</link>
		<dc:creator>Tess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=440#comment-1781</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t there sort of a &#039;change of pace&#039; thing too? If the characters have been on the jump or under pressure for a while, and then the real threat is finally disposed of -- then a short quiet scene or two can demonstrate that new peace to the reader, while tying up a few loose ends.

Cf end of DEADLY HALLOWS, last part of LOTR....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t there sort of a &#8216;change of pace&#8217; thing too? If the characters have been on the jump or under pressure for a while, and then the real threat is finally disposed of &#8212; then a short quiet scene or two can demonstrate that new peace to the reader, while tying up a few loose ends.</p>
<p>Cf end of DEADLY HALLOWS, last part of LOTR&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-end/comment-page-1/#comment-1780</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=440#comment-1780</guid>
		<description>I have to say, the big scene at the end of _Mairelon the Magician_ is positively the BEST OK-let&#039;s-tie-everything-up-at-once scene I&#039;ve ever run into. Just when you think it&#039;s as complex as it can possibly get, yet ANOTHER character walks in and it gets even funnier. That must have been great fun to write. (Also, probably, a lot of work.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say, the big scene at the end of _Mairelon the Magician_ is positively the BEST OK-let&#8217;s-tie-everything-up-at-once scene I&#8217;ve ever run into. Just when you think it&#8217;s as complex as it can possibly get, yet ANOTHER character walks in and it gets even funnier. That must have been great fun to write. (Also, probably, a lot of work.)</p>
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		<title>By: green_knight</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-end/comment-page-1/#comment-1779</link>
		<dc:creator>green_knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=440#comment-1779</guid>
		<description>The story question is often set up right in the first chapter. and it&#039;s *not* always the obvious plot element. If the question is &#039;will the heroine find happyness&#039; then it becomes mostly irrelevant that she&#039;s killed the dragon - in order to get closure. the reader wants to know whether she&#039;s taking up dragonhunting professionally or settling down with her girlfriend or _something_. 

And sometimes - particularly in a long and complex story - wrapping up all subplots would be wrong; life *isn&#039;t* that neat (and you want to leave room for sequels). Finding and answering the main story question will end the story without being too glib and too coincidentally partnering up everybody and solving every mystery. 

(In an unrelated note, if you ever want to do a post about plotting multi-strand epics, PLEASE DO because I am completely and utterly at my wits&#039; end.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The story question is often set up right in the first chapter. and it&#8217;s *not* always the obvious plot element. If the question is &#8216;will the heroine find happyness&#8217; then it becomes mostly irrelevant that she&#8217;s killed the dragon &#8211; in order to get closure. the reader wants to know whether she&#8217;s taking up dragonhunting professionally or settling down with her girlfriend or _something_. </p>
<p>And sometimes &#8211; particularly in a long and complex story &#8211; wrapping up all subplots would be wrong; life *isn&#8217;t* that neat (and you want to leave room for sequels). Finding and answering the main story question will end the story without being too glib and too coincidentally partnering up everybody and solving every mystery. </p>
<p>(In an unrelated note, if you ever want to do a post about plotting multi-strand epics, PLEASE DO because I am completely and utterly at my wits&#8217; end.)</p>
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		<title>By: pcwrede</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-end/comment-page-1/#comment-1778</link>
		<dc:creator>pcwrede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=440#comment-1778</guid>
		<description>Chicoy - Think of the ending scene as the point where it all comes together. Earlier in the story, you can have two or three or a dozen different plot lines running parallel: =  But as you get nearer to the end, they start coming together, until they meet at the climax: &gt;  (Sorry; I can&#039;t do diagrams with this interface.)  I think my best crack at this was the climax of &lt;em&gt;Mairelon the Magician&lt;/em&gt;.  OK, it was two chapters long and had sixteen people all trying to talk at once and was, erm, not easy to write, but it answered or settled a ton of plots and subplots, from who stole the Saltash Set (and why) to what was really going on with Freddy and Marianne, and at least half a dozen others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chicoy &#8211; Think of the ending scene as the point where it all comes together. Earlier in the story, you can have two or three or a dozen different plot lines running parallel: =  But as you get nearer to the end, they start coming together, until they meet at the climax: &gt;  (Sorry; I can&#8217;t do diagrams with this interface.)  I think my best crack at this was the climax of <em>Mairelon the Magician</em>.  OK, it was two chapters long and had sixteen people all trying to talk at once and was, erm, not easy to write, but it answered or settled a ton of plots and subplots, from who stole the Saltash Set (and why) to what was really going on with Freddy and Marianne, and at least half a dozen others.</p>
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