Comments on: The skeleton in the closet http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/ Sun, 20 May 2012 20:37:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Tess http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-1384 Tess Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:35:57 +0000 http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=153#comment-1384 Over at Tor, there's an interesting article, "Re-reading Sandman: An introduction" by Teresa Nielsen Hayden, which makes Sandman sound like quite a different kind of thing. At least the part she's covered here: http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=49187 I'd keep wondering when the actual story was going to get going. Over at Tor, there’s an interesting article, “Re-reading Sandman: An introduction” by
Teresa Nielsen Hayden, which makes Sandman sound like quite a different kind of thing. At least the part she’s covered here: http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=49187

I’d keep wondering when the actual story was going to get going.

]]> By: green_knight http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-1380 green_knight Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:40:45 +0000 http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=153#comment-1380 Pat & Tess, the fact that I *don't* know where the book will go is one of the things that attracts me to the genre, or to Westerns for that matter (not that I read many of those or that I've seen many good ones lately) - but even if you assume an upbeat ending, there are many ways it can play out. I am bored by most books who pose the main questions within the first ten pages and then continue to play that out until it's solved. (And no, I don't read Romance, either.) Pat & Tess, the fact that I *don’t* know where the book will go is one of the things that attracts me to the genre, or to Westerns for that matter (not that I read many of those or that I’ve seen many good ones lately) – but even if you assume an upbeat ending, there are many ways it can play out.

I am bored by most books who pose the main questions within the first ten pages and then continue to play that out until it’s solved. (And no, I don’t read Romance, either.)

]]> By: pcwrede http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-1376 pcwrede Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:43:14 +0000 http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=153#comment-1376 Tess - I don't think that knowing in general that the ending of a book is going to be happy or sad isn't quite the same as knowing specifically how the story comes out, which is pretty much the case with the two movies I cited. It's a good point, though - obviously, for some genres, you do have a fairly good idea how the basic plot is going to come out (I'm thinking of Romance and Mystery, where +95% of the books end with getting the guy or finding the murderer, though even there, you can find books that play against the pattern). I don't think that's anything like as true for fantasy or SF. A fair amount of the time, you don't even know what the actual objective of the book is until halfway through - the characters start out trying to do one thing, but in the process find out they really, really need to do something else. And you can't even depend on a happy ending; a lot of SF and fantasy these days is very dark. Tess – I don’t think that knowing in general that the ending of a book is going to be happy or sad isn’t quite the same as knowing specifically how the story comes out, which is pretty much the case with the two movies I cited. It’s a good point, though – obviously, for some genres, you do have a fairly good idea how the basic plot is going to come out (I’m thinking of Romance and Mystery, where +95% of the books end with getting the guy or finding the murderer, though even there, you can find books that play against the pattern).

I don’t think that’s anything like as true for fantasy or SF. A fair amount of the time, you don’t even know what the actual objective of the book is until halfway through – the characters start out trying to do one thing, but in the process find out they really, really need to do something else. And you can’t even depend on a happy ending; a lot of SF and fantasy these days is very dark.

]]> By: Tess http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-1374 Tess Tue, 08 Sep 2009 08:29:03 +0000 http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=153#comment-1374 <I>The thing that makes it work is precisely that - since you know that they both come back, all the tension comes from “OMG, how are they going to ge out of THAT?!?” </I> But isn't that the ... helpful elephant in the room in most genre books? We know in general what the ending will be, so the question is not What? but How? The thing that makes it work is precisely that – since you know that they both come back, all the tension comes from “OMG, how are they going to ge out of THAT?!?”

But isn’t that the … helpful elephant in the room in most genre books? We know in general what the ending will be, so the question is not What? but How?

]]> By: pcwrede http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-1355 pcwrede Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:56:18 +0000 http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=153#comment-1355 green_knight - What that sounds like to me is very much a problem with the plot skeleton. Instead of having the zig-zag normal plot-skeleton diagram, with higher highs and lower lows each time, I'd diagram this as a nice, even slide downward, with a sudden jump up to success at the end. My point, though, was that something like this <em>could</em> be made into a fine story...if the story is actually about something other than climbing the mountain. But if the goal really is climbing the mountain...well, that's a little harder to make work. Although now that you mention it, I am suddenly thinking of the documentary/recreation movie, "Into the Void," which could very much be described as a series of disasters getting farther and farther from the ultimate goal...except that you know from the interviews that both climbers make it down. The thing that makes it work is precisely that - since you <em>know</em> that they both come back, all the tension comes from "OMG, how are they going to ge out of THAT?!?" "Apollo Thirteen" was like that, too...at least for those of us who were there for it in real life. green_knight – What that sounds like to me is very much a problem with the plot skeleton. Instead of having the zig-zag normal plot-skeleton diagram, with higher highs and lower lows each time, I’d diagram this as a nice, even slide downward, with a sudden jump up to success at the end. My point, though, was that something like this could be made into a fine story…if the story is actually about something other than climbing the mountain. But if the goal really is climbing the mountain…well, that’s a little harder to make work.

Although now that you mention it, I am suddenly thinking of the documentary/recreation movie, “Into the Void,” which could very much be described as a series of disasters getting farther and farther from the ultimate goal…except that you know from the interviews that both climbers make it down. The thing that makes it work is precisely that – since you know that they both come back, all the tension comes from “OMG, how are they going to ge out of THAT?!?” “Apollo Thirteen” was like that, too…at least for those of us who were there for it in real life.

]]> By: green_knight http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-1351 green_knight Sun, 06 Sep 2009 11:36:11 +0000 http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=153#comment-1351 Pat, the example given - and I've read books like that - was where it wasn't a book about a man with an obsession coming to terms with it, but still _about_ the mountain, and ending with him achieving his goal against all odds. If the desire to climb a mountain is merely an inciting incident, that's fine, but if the story continues to be _about_ that, while making it less and less likely that he'll get there... no thanks. Pat, the example given – and I’ve read books like that – was where it wasn’t a book about a man with an obsession coming to terms with it, but still _about_ the mountain, and ending with him achieving his goal against all odds. If the desire to climb a mountain is merely an inciting incident, that’s fine, but if the story continues to be _about_ that, while making it less and less likely that he’ll get there… no thanks.

]]> By: pcwrede http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-1346 pcwrede Sat, 05 Sep 2009 13:26:03 +0000 http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=153#comment-1346 Michelle-OK, I had a whole long response written and then I looked at it and said "I could make this a post, and I probably should." So I'm going to. Michelle-OK, I had a whole long response written and then I looked at it and said “I could make this a post, and I probably should.” So I’m going to.

]]> By: Michelle Bottorff http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-1344 Michelle Bottorff Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:24:21 +0000 http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=153#comment-1344 Um, yes. An open ended adventure/mystery series -- that's exactly what I'm trying to do. So I guess that doesn't count as 'getting conned into' writing sequels, then, does it? The only time you need to 'con' someone into writing a sequel is when they probably shouldn't be doing anything of the sort. Um, yes. An open ended adventure/mystery series — that’s exactly what I’m trying to do.

So I guess that doesn’t count as ‘getting conned into’ writing sequels, then, does it? The only time you need to ‘con’ someone into writing a sequel is when they probably shouldn’t be doing anything of the sort.

]]> By: pcwrede http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-1340 pcwrede Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:01:32 +0000 http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=153#comment-1340 green_knight - Actually, I think the would-be mountain climber could make a perfectly good book...it just wouldn't be one about actually climbing a mountain. Some readers don't mind that sort of shell game switch - the one where what the character *thinks* he wants or needs isn't the plot-driving McGuffin, because what he *really* needs is something else entirely. Your version - where the climber has to choose between reaching the summit and helping an enemy - is the same kind of thing, just later on in the process. The would-be climber with his string of failures could make a great come-to-realize book (where the guy comes to realize that there are things more important than this obsession with the mountain), or it could be done as a terriffic comedy-of-errors (the sort where he gets the loan...just as the bank robbers arrive to not only steal his cash but take him hostage. Or where he doesn't get the loan, decides to rob the bank, and the *real* bank robbers arrive in the middle of his attempt, etc.). In other words, you may not <em>need</em> to get to the mountain, because that's not actually what the story is about. green_knight – Actually, I think the would-be mountain climber could make a perfectly good book…it just wouldn’t be one about actually climbing a mountain. Some readers don’t mind that sort of shell game switch – the one where what the character *thinks* he wants or needs isn’t the plot-driving McGuffin, because what he *really* needs is something else entirely. Your version – where the climber has to choose between reaching the summit and helping an enemy – is the same kind of thing, just later on in the process.

The would-be climber with his string of failures could make a great come-to-realize book (where the guy comes to realize that there are things more important than this obsession with the mountain), or it could be done as a terriffic comedy-of-errors (the sort where he gets the loan…just as the bank robbers arrive to not only steal his cash but take him hostage. Or where he doesn’t get the loan, decides to rob the bank, and the *real* bank robbers arrive in the middle of his attempt, etc.). In other words, you may not need to get to the mountain, because that’s not actually what the story is about.

]]> By: pcwrede http://pcwrede.com/blog/the-skeleton-in-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-1339 pcwrede Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:49:50 +0000 http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=153#comment-1339 Michelle - You seem to be doing something more like a standard mystery novel or action-adventure series, where it's the monster or murder of the week that's the problem and no escalation is needed (or wanted). Most epic fantasy, though, does seem to go straight for saving the world...or if not, then at least the kingdom. Michelle – You seem to be doing something more like a standard mystery novel or action-adventure series, where it’s the monster or murder of the week that’s the problem and no escalation is needed (or wanted). Most epic fantasy, though, does seem to go straight for saving the world…or if not, then at least the kingdom.

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