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	<title>Comments on: To preach or not to preach</title>
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	<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/</link>
	<description>Patricia C. Wrede talks about writing</description>
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		<title>By: Julie Musil</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/comment-page-1/#comment-8875</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Musil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2012 01:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=1632#comment-8875</guid>
		<description>This is such an excellent point! I don&#039;t mind these types of messages, as long as it&#039;s buried in a great story. And I really like it when a story tells both sides of an issue. Even if I don&#039;t agree with the other side, it&#039;s good for me to read it and consider it.

Great post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is such an excellent point! I don&#8217;t mind these types of messages, as long as it&#8217;s buried in a great story. And I really like it when a story tells both sides of an issue. Even if I don&#8217;t agree with the other side, it&#8217;s good for me to read it and consider it.</p>
<p>Great post!</p>
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		<title>By: Cathy Mealey</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/comment-page-1/#comment-8774</link>
		<dc:creator>Cathy Mealey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2012 14:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=1632#comment-8774</guid>
		<description>Adding to the example list with my favorite:  Roald Dahl&#039;s &quot;Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.&quot;  Were Mr. Wonka and the Oompa-Loompas preaching or moralizing?  In any case it wouldn&#039;t be the same story without them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adding to the example list with my favorite:  Roald Dahl&#8217;s &#8220;Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.&#8221;  Were Mr. Wonka and the Oompa-Loompas preaching or moralizing?  In any case it wouldn&#8217;t be the same story without them.</p>
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		<title>By: David Y</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/comment-page-1/#comment-8651</link>
		<dc:creator>David Y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 02:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=1632#comment-8651</guid>
		<description>Remember the early 60s? (weel, a couple of us do) We went to concerts by certain artists specifically to be preached at.
For books with messages, Charles Dickens.  But he managed to put them into stories that everyone read.
I haven&#039;t read Uncle Tom&#039;s Cabin, but it sold a lot of copies (and possibly started a war). 

One of our Ontario music festivals includes a concert called a Hymn Tasting. As well as a number of hymns that the host feels are undeservedly unknown, he includes a number that demonstrate that faith, piety, and enthusiasm are not incompatible with boring, clumsy, and unlistenable (they only get one verse).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember the early 60s? (weel, a couple of us do) We went to concerts by certain artists specifically to be preached at.<br />
For books with messages, Charles Dickens.  But he managed to put them into stories that everyone read.<br />
I haven&#8217;t read Uncle Tom&#8217;s Cabin, but it sold a lot of copies (and possibly started a war). </p>
<p>One of our Ontario music festivals includes a concert called a Hymn Tasting. As well as a number of hymns that the host feels are undeservedly unknown, he includes a number that demonstrate that faith, piety, and enthusiasm are not incompatible with boring, clumsy, and unlistenable (they only get one verse).</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Sanger</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/comment-page-1/#comment-8645</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Sanger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 21:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=1632#comment-8645</guid>
		<description>My answer presumes the connotation I take from preaching: it is the author&#039;s voice, being blatant. Almost never is this OK. For starters the fourth wall is shattered, which obviously can only be pulled off in an extreme context and with extraordinary care. At the other end of the interpretation of the question is the notion that all writing is persuasion. So the issue permutes to &quot;How do you preach well&quot; and the answer permutes to &quot;Great writing and story telling,&quot; along with alertness to the author effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My answer presumes the connotation I take from preaching: it is the author&#8217;s voice, being blatant. Almost never is this OK. For starters the fourth wall is shattered, which obviously can only be pulled off in an extreme context and with extraordinary care. At the other end of the interpretation of the question is the notion that all writing is persuasion. So the issue permutes to &#8220;How do you preach well&#8221; and the answer permutes to &#8220;Great writing and story telling,&#8221; along with alertness to the author effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Lark</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/comment-page-1/#comment-8633</link>
		<dc:creator>Lark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 17:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=1632#comment-8633</guid>
		<description>Preaching in fiction comes in two forms, overt and subtle.  The former is more obvious, and can be done well or poorly.  Several comments above have given wonderful examples of overt preaching done well; I&#039;ll add &quot;A Christmas Carol&quot; and &quot;Gulliver&#039;s Travels&quot; to that list.  

It seems odd that modern authors and critics would be so adamantly against a practice with such a venerable history and so many great works behind it. But as everyone has pointed out, the issue is really &quot;how well does the author pull it off?&quot;

Subtle preaching, on the other hand, is inevitable; an author&#039;s beliefs and values are bound to come out in their writing, whether they are aware of including them or not. I suspect that if an author deliberately tried to suppress this, they wouldn&#039;t write nearly as well.  Of course, an author has to write characters who think and behave in ways opposed to the author&#039;s own values, but those characters can serve to highlight the author&#039;s beliefs by negative example. 

Victoria Scribens makes a good point about coming to agree with an author&#039;s positions because of how (well) they present them in their fiction.  Equally, I&#039;ve learned and grown by disagreeing with an author&#039;s positions, and figuring out why those positions made me uncomfortable.  

I&#039;ve done some more thinking about this topic over on my blog (because it was too long to post here.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Preaching in fiction comes in two forms, overt and subtle.  The former is more obvious, and can be done well or poorly.  Several comments above have given wonderful examples of overt preaching done well; I&#8217;ll add &#8220;A Christmas Carol&#8221; and &#8220;Gulliver&#8217;s Travels&#8221; to that list.  </p>
<p>It seems odd that modern authors and critics would be so adamantly against a practice with such a venerable history and so many great works behind it. But as everyone has pointed out, the issue is really &#8220;how well does the author pull it off?&#8221;</p>
<p>Subtle preaching, on the other hand, is inevitable; an author&#8217;s beliefs and values are bound to come out in their writing, whether they are aware of including them or not. I suspect that if an author deliberately tried to suppress this, they wouldn&#8217;t write nearly as well.  Of course, an author has to write characters who think and behave in ways opposed to the author&#8217;s own values, but those characters can serve to highlight the author&#8217;s beliefs by negative example. </p>
<p>Victoria Scribens makes a good point about coming to agree with an author&#8217;s positions because of how (well) they present them in their fiction.  Equally, I&#8217;ve learned and grown by disagreeing with an author&#8217;s positions, and figuring out why those positions made me uncomfortable.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve done some more thinking about this topic over on my blog (because it was too long to post here.)</p>
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		<title>By: Victoria Scribens</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/comment-page-1/#comment-8630</link>
		<dc:creator>Victoria Scribens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 15:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=1632#comment-8630</guid>
		<description>This is something I wonder about a great deal.  Some of my favourite books, hands down, have definite didactic purposes. Fantasy often does: it&#039;s an area where we can go to town with bringing good and evil, in all their forms, in. That&#039;s one of the reasons I like it; it&#039;s a way I can address those questions.  I like Charles Williams, and Madeleine L&#039;Engle, and C.S. Lewis, and Dante, and not just because I happen to agree with their positions -- I have *come* to agree with some of their positions because of the way they present them through their fiction.  Others of their positions I heartily disagree with. But it&#039;s because I can love their characters and stories and ideas and wrestle with them that I&#039;m willing to do so.  

On the other hand, one of my favourite non-fantasy authors, Christopher Brookmyre, writes with varyingly overt anti-Christian sentiments in his (rude and violent) comic thrillers. Again, I agree with many of his positions partly because he shows me why he holds them through his characters; I disagree with some of his conclusions, but some of that is because we obviously have different premises in a few cases.

This rule, to me, is something like the &quot;Show, don&#039;t tell&quot; rule -- often a good thing, but usually because (as the other commenters have pointed out) it&#039;s done so badly. But some of the most memorable parts of books are telling portions.  The brilliant speech, the character&#039;s manifesto.  And in my stories, some of the parts my readers have liked best are the preaching sections -- but though they are something I want to say, it&#039;s in the book because the *character* wants to say it.  That I write the kind of characters who hold those positions grows organically out of my own philosophical and theological reflections. 

Didactic literature can be terrible; I don&#039;t think anyone disagrees with that.  But then again, it can be the Divine Comedy, or Animal Farm, or Robinson Crusoe, or the Narnia books, or . . . Assuming that unreflective materialism isn&#039;t a philosophical position doesn&#039;t make it cease to be one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is something I wonder about a great deal.  Some of my favourite books, hands down, have definite didactic purposes. Fantasy often does: it&#8217;s an area where we can go to town with bringing good and evil, in all their forms, in. That&#8217;s one of the reasons I like it; it&#8217;s a way I can address those questions.  I like Charles Williams, and Madeleine L&#8217;Engle, and C.S. Lewis, and Dante, and not just because I happen to agree with their positions &#8212; I have *come* to agree with some of their positions because of the way they present them through their fiction.  Others of their positions I heartily disagree with. But it&#8217;s because I can love their characters and stories and ideas and wrestle with them that I&#8217;m willing to do so.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, one of my favourite non-fantasy authors, Christopher Brookmyre, writes with varyingly overt anti-Christian sentiments in his (rude and violent) comic thrillers. Again, I agree with many of his positions partly because he shows me why he holds them through his characters; I disagree with some of his conclusions, but some of that is because we obviously have different premises in a few cases.</p>
<p>This rule, to me, is something like the &#8220;Show, don&#8217;t tell&#8221; rule &#8212; often a good thing, but usually because (as the other commenters have pointed out) it&#8217;s done so badly. But some of the most memorable parts of books are telling portions.  The brilliant speech, the character&#8217;s manifesto.  And in my stories, some of the parts my readers have liked best are the preaching sections &#8212; but though they are something I want to say, it&#8217;s in the book because the *character* wants to say it.  That I write the kind of characters who hold those positions grows organically out of my own philosophical and theological reflections. </p>
<p>Didactic literature can be terrible; I don&#8217;t think anyone disagrees with that.  But then again, it can be the Divine Comedy, or Animal Farm, or Robinson Crusoe, or the Narnia books, or . . . Assuming that unreflective materialism isn&#8217;t a philosophical position doesn&#8217;t make it cease to be one.</p>
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		<title>By: Tiana Smith</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/comment-page-1/#comment-8628</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiana Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 14:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=1632#comment-8628</guid>
		<description>I think it depends on how well the author pulls it off. I&#039;m fine if stories have morals that they teach, but if they&#039;re hitting me over the head with it, I&#039;m likely to get annoyed. No one likes to be preached to, but if someone points something out to us in a logical manner, we don&#039;t often get offended and we might even find we agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it depends on how well the author pulls it off. I&#8217;m fine if stories have morals that they teach, but if they&#8217;re hitting me over the head with it, I&#8217;m likely to get annoyed. No one likes to be preached to, but if someone points something out to us in a logical manner, we don&#8217;t often get offended and we might even find we agree.</p>
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		<title>By: J.P.</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/comment-page-1/#comment-8622</link>
		<dc:creator>J.P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 13:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=1632#comment-8622</guid>
		<description>My gut response to this post is, &quot;Oh good!&quot; As a descendent of four generations of preachers, I suspect that my dear subconscious wouldn&#039;t recognize as story anything that didn&#039;t have at least a sprinkle of ethical character growth in it. Doing it right, though... That&#039;s the hard part. I suspect that&#039;s always the hard part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My gut response to this post is, &#8220;Oh good!&#8221; As a descendent of four generations of preachers, I suspect that my dear subconscious wouldn&#8217;t recognize as story anything that didn&#8217;t have at least a sprinkle of ethical character growth in it. Doing it right, though&#8230; That&#8217;s the hard part. I suspect that&#8217;s always the hard part.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/comment-page-1/#comment-8610</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 May 2012 23:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=1632#comment-8610</guid>
		<description>Well, there are two many reasons why not:

1.  Because the reader is buying your story to be entertained, and to drop that for preaching is fraud.

2.  Because it is a wonderful chance to show off the depths of your shallowness by the evidence of what you think worthy of preaching about and what you say about it.

To be sure they can be finessed.  The first by making the preaching entertaining.  The second by having something profound to say, usually by not inventing your own.  (Really.  If you think you have discovered something new and profound about problems that people have broken their hearts over for millennia -- probably you should lie down instead of writing it up.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, there are two many reasons why not:</p>
<p>1.  Because the reader is buying your story to be entertained, and to drop that for preaching is fraud.</p>
<p>2.  Because it is a wonderful chance to show off the depths of your shallowness by the evidence of what you think worthy of preaching about and what you say about it.</p>
<p>To be sure they can be finessed.  The first by making the preaching entertaining.  The second by having something profound to say, usually by not inventing your own.  (Really.  If you think you have discovered something new and profound about problems that people have broken their hearts over for millennia &#8212; probably you should lie down instead of writing it up.)</p>
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		<title>By: Anna Haugen</title>
		<link>http://pcwrede.com/blog/to-preach-or-not-to-preach/comment-page-1/#comment-8605</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna Haugen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 May 2012 19:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pcwrede.com/blog/?p=1632#comment-8605</guid>
		<description>Oddly enough, I think this may be an area where fanfic writers actually do better than pro writers, at least some of the time.  Fandom spends so much time analyzing every little detail of the source material, including what the themes and messages are (intended or not).  As John Lennard points out in &quot;Of Criticism and Continuities&quot; in his book *Of Sex and Faerie--Further essays on Genre Fiction*, for a lot of fanfic authors fanfic is our way of responding to and exploring such themes and messages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oddly enough, I think this may be an area where fanfic writers actually do better than pro writers, at least some of the time.  Fandom spends so much time analyzing every little detail of the source material, including what the themes and messages are (intended or not).  As John Lennard points out in &#8220;Of Criticism and Continuities&#8221; in his book *Of Sex and Faerie&#8211;Further essays on Genre Fiction*, for a lot of fanfic authors fanfic is our way of responding to and exploring such themes and messages.</p>
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